Green Room #21 - The DVSA's 'Are You Ready To Pass?' campaign

Terry: So, welcome to the Instructor podcast, Green Room edition. This is the show where we talk about Adi and PDI specific topics and look at the latest news going on within our industry. As always, I am your splendid horse, Terry Cook. And thankfully for you guys, at least it isn't just me. We're joined by someone of equal to greater stature in Chris Spencer. How are we doing Chris. all is good?

Chris: They get the combined chaos of the two of us.

Terry: Watch it be mundane now for this episode. So let's dive straight into the news. So, the biggest news topic of of this month is the fact that at the Intelligence Instructor and ADINJC Expo on the 2nd October the Instructor podcast will be recording it's 100th episode live at the Expo. I think that is some tremendous news. Chris, how do you feel about the Instructor podcast recording it's 100th episode live at the Intelligent Instructor expo?

Chris: Awesome. It'd be great. It'd be interesting to see what you do and who you speak to. So, yeah, I look forward to it. I'm hoping I'm going to be able to be there, but I might have to dodge you if you're waving your microphone at people

Terry:, you're not quite as excited as I'd hoped you'd be. But anyway, I'll tell you what was interesting though. I was kind of thinking about that before we started recording. I say that as a joke and it was kind of said in jest, but then I thought, you know what, if I wasn't me doing it, then I would be talking about it and in that sense thinking that's quite cool.

There's an actual podcast being recorded live at the event and I think it's pretty cool. It's worth a little mention and obviously a little plug as well.

So if you are going to the Expo on the 2 October, make sure you come down. I am probably going to be in the smallest room available, which is fine by me, because on one hand, the fewer people that watch me completely balls up live, the better. However, I would like to pack the room. So, if you're down there, come and find me. Come and watch me.

I have got a very special competition lined up. I'm not 100% sure what the actual competition will be, but I will tell you the prize, which is a twelve month subscription to my premium content free of charge. You'll get that free of charge. I'm not sure what the competition yet. Maybe I'll ask you to take a selfie with me and chuck it on social media or something like that, I don't know. But you'll have to come down and see me and I'm getting some special pens made up as well.

As for the guests, I can't confirm it just yet, but I have put requests for people, so we're just waiting to see who they are. But it would have been quite cool to actually get you on, Chris. Maybe get you on and get like a couple of either way, I'll put you as a reserve just in case.

Chris: If everyone else says no, you mean you'll give me a shout and see if I'm going to be there?

Terry: Yeah, exactly. But yeah, so that's the breaking news, obviously. So, like I said, come to the expo because you get to see me. I'm also going to be hosting one of the panels down there as well, which I will tell you now is absolutely nerve wracking for me. That's going to be in front of actual people and you are going to see me just go bright red and waffle and try not to insult anyone.

So, yes, go to the Expo, watch me make a fool of myself, but spread the love for the instructor podcast while you're down there.

There has been some news, not a massive amount, but enough to record a podcast about. And the first one I'm going to mention is the Highway Code, and I think it's worth mentioning it's just around some updated driving sentences for driving offenses. So, I kind of just touch on this briefly.

Basically, the penalties for causing death by dangerous driving and causing death by careless driving under the influence of drink and drugs, now they both increased from 14 years to life imprisonment. That's a maximum sentence increase from 14 years to life imprisonment. And there's an obligatory disqualification period for both, has increased from two years to five years. So, you'll be disqualified for at least five years if either of those things occur. And a new driving offense has been created which is causing serious injury by dangerous driving, which carries a maximum penalty of two years imprisonment and an unlimited fine. Any thoughts on that, Chris, or is it pretty much the same as me? Which is, good?

Chris: Yes, good. We should be more reflective of what's actually happened. I think every situation has to be looked at from both sides of it and from the individual circumstances, but it's got having it available to them as a conviction has got to be a good thing. The problem is it doesn't change anything for you or I, because we wouldn't have taken a lot of those risks in the first place because that's not who we are. So, it will be interesting to see whether those that are less risk averse will respond in any way to the additional punishment that is potentially on the end of it.

Terry: I don't think it will work as a deterrent at all because I don't think that the people that are doing it anyway really care about that. No one goes out with the, well, I like to think no one goes out with the intention of causing serious harm or an accident, but I also think that if you are driving that reckless anyway, you're not going to be put off by a bit of a stronger sentence. But I am pleased that there is a stronger sentence there, so it might not be deterrent, but at least the punishment is greater. Anything else to add on that?

Chris: No, I think it's exactly that, isn't it? It doesn't undo what was done. And if someone is the sort of person who you said doesn't care, I think often doesn't realize the real risk. I think it's not on their radar. Care suggests a level of understanding and thought put into it. I don't think it even goes that far in a lot of cases. Yeah, I don't think it's going to make any odds and it doesn't undo what was done. So, I think we all just agree to keep fighting the fight and not let people get there in the first place.

Terry: Yeah. All right, we'll put a pin in that one. Then we will look at some of the news that has gone on over the last month and I think it's largely kind of DVSA focused. Often it is on this show because that's where the news comes from.

Well, I'd like to think is a bit more positive this time than we sometimes talk about. They’ve released their ready to pass campaign. They also promoted that a little bit differently to what they normally do. They've put on Graham O'Brien. The assistant chief driving examiner has been promoting that. He’s appeared on this podcast.

So, if you haven't listened to that, go back and check out as a bonus episode. That was out on Thursday the 28th. So, yeah, go back and check that out. They also appeared on DIPOD, so make sure you go and check out as well. And they're both very different episodes and to the best of my understanding, there is actually a second episode of DIPOD coming out after this will be released. So, keep your eyes peeled for ears peeled even for that as well. So, yeah, they're Ready to Pass campaign the way they're promoting it. But also the annual review came out, so thankfully, Chris, before we start, you did tell me you have some notes, because usually when I come on to do the shows, I've got like two full pages of notes and today I have none. It's been one of those weeks. So, yes, a little bit flying on the seat of my pants, but we'll be all good. Let's touch on this Ready to Pass campaign to begin with. Let's kind of look at your view of this. What are your initial thoughts on this from a personal perspective?

Chris: I like the campaign. I think it's good. The actual visuals of it are good. As you said on the previous podcast that not everyone's going to like it because some people are going to hate it. Whether it was covered in gold or if they'd written it themselves, they'd still say they hated it. But it's the joy of the job, isn't it? Driving Instructor but I think that the actual campaign is really good. Possibly some of it, the things that are coming out, that when you pass your theory test, you get inside of that or with that is a bit late in the game. I'd like to see it going out with provisional licenses, which from experience, I know is difficult because that's DVLA territory. But you would have thought they could come to some arrangement. It would be nice if they were getting in that little bit earlier.

The controversy, if that's not overstating it, seems to be that they want us to shout the message out, brilliant, make ourselves more visible, show that we're working in tandem with the DVLA, actually be part of the solution. I'm finding it very difficult to find something I don't like. Some of it is too test focused, but they are the minimum standards agency that’s their job.

So, they are test focused in that way because it's focusing on the past and not anything afterwards. Safe Driving for Life, I believe, has taken a bit of a backseat because they're firefighting, but we want them to be. I think we're beginning to see the results of some of the changes that they've made. So, if this is doing it, great.

My two negatives are with regards to the text message that is being sent out. It's got pass rate at the test centre. So, it says that your test is at whichever test centre. Pass rate is 60%. They've said on the website 51 in 100 failed. But because the pass rate has gone up, the Covid symptom of pass rate going up, people have had more experience. Experience equals higher pass rate. I think that's misleading, and I don't get the benefit of a candidate knowing it's a 61% pass rate at that test centre. It almost pits the test centres against each other.

And then on the one that we got for our local test centre, it said the waiting list is five weeks. We haven't seen a test available on the Monday release date for at least three of the weeks. I don't know where they get five weeks from. I'd like to know a bit more about that, but maybe it's the usual story of lack of communication about that figure rather than actually it not being a good thing. Maybe I just don't understand yet. I look forward to having that understanding. The overview. Yeah, it was really good. I like the social stuff. We shared all of it, and there were some positive likes from people that it was relevant to, so it was connecting just before.

Terry: I kind of share my thoughts on that. I think I want to ask you just to clarify one thing, because you spoke there about minimum standards and we've spoken about that previously. I know sometimes I'm guilty of forgetting that I get new listeners sometimes. So, do you just want to tell people listening what you mean when you're talking about minimum standards?

Chris: Yes, absolutely. Thank you. The DVSA's job is minimum standard because they set what that minimum bar is. You need to achieve this to be successful. They don't actually do anything that is based on achieving a maximum, going past that minimum level. And for me, and the reason the DITC has been created is it that it’s down to us to fight for those maximum standards and to decide what they are.

And that isn't in any way, shape or form criticizing the DVSA because that is their job. Their job is to decide what is the minimum requirement that we need, and we need them there for that. I think the problem is we've often looked at them for more than that and a good example would be I want them to make the audit register, to make trainers a mandatory requirement, rather than anyone can train someone to be an ADI because we'll get better instructors from it. So that's something that we wanted, and I know the DVSA want, but that means that mandatory needs to be audit register or whatever it becomes, needs to be the minimum standard and that means raising standards from the bottom up.

I'd rather have higher standards in the industry, so we don't really have to worry about the minimum. It looks after itself. I think they are complimentary and supportive of each other. It's definitely not a criticism. I've got some, but it's not one of them.

Terry: I think we've just found a future episode there - the difference between minimum and maximum standards. Is there such a thing as maximum standards or can we only ever improve?

But yeah, I think that you look at the driving test as well as a good example, you need to get no more than 15 driver faults and no serious or dangerous faults. That's the minimum standard you need to pass your test. It doesn't matter whether you get 15 or zero driver faults. Yeah, you got your minimum there and like you said, it's not necessarily in a derogatory way for the purpose it serves, I need to set those rules.

So, yeah, sometimes I think I'm guilty of forgetting. We need to clarify some stuff for maybe people haven't caught all the previous episodes, but back onto the Are you Ready to Pass? Campaign. Also called Ready to Pass, it's got brilliant website name, readytopass.campaign.Gov.UK. So essentially you need to click a link because I'm not typing that in, but I will put it in the show notes for anyone who hasn't checked out.

I've got a couple of queries around this, and I am going to put a caveat on this. I do love a good caveat. If anyone's heard the interview, I did with Graham O'Brien recently? You'll have heard me put a couple of queries around this on there. I could have spoken with Graham easily for another couple of hours. And to be fair, he probably would have spoken to me for a of hours. It's very generous of his time, but I think we're both starting to get a little bit tired after 90 minutes, as both me and you can attest to Chris sometimes with these recordings.

So, yeah, if I mentioned something here that I didn't mention and that's why there are time constraints sometimes. But one thing I'm going to query here is check you're ready to take the test. This is one of the criteria - check you're ready to take the test. You'll usually be ready when, number one, you do not need help or prompts from your driving instructor. I think that makes sense. I think I'm in full agreement with that. Would you agree with that, Chris?

Chris: I don't like the wording because this is where it gets test focused. That suggests that we can't help them anymore and therefore our job is finished. And I like to believe in a world where we don't just stop at the driving test. So, I appreciate it is focused on the passing and the test and everything else. I just think that you don't need help from your driving instructor. It grated on me, I have to say.

Terry: Let's put a pin in the test focus thing for now. We will come back to it, I promise. But I think that this is test focused. Ready to pass is literally test focused. I think even on the recording. We'll come back to the podcast shortly, but I think Graham didn’t fully endorse that, but accepted that the wording and the direction of it was test focused. It was just looking beyond that as well. So, I think that we're talking about passing a test. I personally have a concern with that. There is a couple of concern with, one of which is the next one. Number two, you do not make silly mistakes when you are driving.

Chris: I do.

Terry: Yeah, I do. So today I tried setting off in third gear and I felt it immediately, so the car didn't stop and I just put it in first. The car behind probably won't have even noticed. It Might have added 2 seconds on to my take off time at the lights. But yeah, people make silly mistakes. I think that needs to be clarified a little bit more. In fact, the expanded bit, you need to be a good driver to pass a driving test. If you regularly make silly mistakes on your driving lessons, you're not ready to take and pass your driving test. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh. It doesn't expand and say regularly. I suppose if you're making it again define regularly, maybe I've been a little bit nitpicky there.

Chris: And do you not think that being able to manage and deal with silly mistakes is actually helpful? otherwise? We're looking for us all to be perfect. And I think, actually that's my thing on the help, is the fact that there's a judgment in there as well, and we're supporting all the way up to the day. It's not specific enough, but we've been there, we almost expect it.

Terry: Yeah. The next one, number three, you pass every mock test you do. I'm really picky with this one because if the criteria you're setting oh, God, I apologize for this in advance. Right? But if the criteria you're setting is pass every mock test you do, that means if you do a mock test and fail, you're never allowed to take a driving test because you could fail your first one, pass the next seven. But the criteria is to pass every one. So, I think just in terms of the technicalities of the word is used, I don't think that's ideal.

Chris: And I think there's a lot of instructors that still feel, even with the new DVSA interventions with mock testing, that we shouldn't let them pass because we want to hold them to that higher standard that actually we want to give them the things to focus on. When you say you're really good, it often goes wrong. So sometimes being like, yeah, all right, you know how to work on that, and we can. The pass isn't necessarily the thing the mock test is about. And this is what deep, as I have said, the process and the experience of it, so they know what they're going into. You don't have to have passed it to do that. So, I'm not as sure about that.

Terry: Yeah. And I think that controlling those nerves, this kind of ties in with the next one a little bit. I always think if I can get my students up to a high level of like a nine or a ten out of ten, if the nerves affect them a bit on the test, they drop down to maybe a seven or eight out of ten. Whereas if they're going in at a seven or eight out of ten and they're dropping down to a five out of ten, and that's not great.

Chris: Yeah.

Terry: So, if we do judge on that higher standard, maximum versus minimum, if we do judge on that higher standard, what's giving me a better chance to pass and be a better chance after the test? Hopefully. So, once I get what the point is there, I think that one is worded brilliantly. The next two I think I agree with. I'm sure you would as well – Number four - You can control your nerves.

Chris: I like the wording.

Terry: Yes, you should be able to if you can't control your nerves at all, you probably shouldn't be driving at that point. You want to get to a point where you can control them, and that might be something that we can help with as instructors. It might be something you have to go something a little bit deeper with, maybe a professional in that area. But, yeah, I think controlling your nerves makes sense. Would you agree?

Chris: Yes, and I like the fact that they're almost giving you permission to have the nerves as long as you can do something about it and you can put strategies in place, which is what driving is all about.

Terry: And then this next one I do agree with, but let’s look at number five, your driving instructor says you're ready. So, yes, I agree with that. I do think that yes, they need to say you're ready. But I do think they're missing the key thing there, which is that they think they're ready. And I know that kind of sounds obvious, but I've had students in the past. I think they're ready, but they don't think they are. And then part of my job is to get them thinking they're ready.

Chris: Yeah, again with that one. I would say it's about agreement that your driving instructor agrees that you are ready. Again, it's us having that teamwork thing, isn't it? All good instructors have an element of us working together on an equal level because they are putting that work in and they're achieving it. It's that agreement thing for all of those. My criticisms are with the wording, not with the message. There's just little things that you kind of think it depends how it's going to be read and how it's going to be interpreted. I agree with the message of all of them.

Terry: Okay, so we'll come back in a minute with the talk about the safe driving for life. Whether it's been test focussed or not, then maybe why the pass rates test has been publicized. Could only find that out today if not publicized, promoted almost to the students. But before we do that, we may as well take a moment to set the table. So, Chris, do you want to just tell everybody how much a wonderful human you are and how awesome and why the DITC are awesome?

Chris: Yeah, I'll let people decide whether it's wonderful or not. But I am human, contrary to popular belief. So I founded, along with my business partner, Ian Brett, the driving instructor and trainers collective, the DITC you can find it at the.DITC.co.uk. And we are working towards being because I agree with Terry, you can't get there, but that's the point. The home of maximum standards of expanding the industry, not just to have to turn left and right, but to work with the needs of the individual to support pupils and instructors and all of those things that we have learnt some real lessons from the whole covid lock down scenario, that we are all human. So that's one of the really good points and that it's a job and a lifestyle, and we should have some control over how that works. So we're there to support instructors. That's what we do as instructors ourselves.

Terry: I think one day I might get us to introduce each other on the show. That could be fun.

But yes. I appreciate you joining me, Chris. Chris is a regular on the Green Room. I think we finally settle into a rhythm with this. They come out on the last day of every month with the news from the month. We weren't going to do one this month, but it seemed remiss not to. So there's a little bit of news and it gives me an excuse to change to chat to Chris. But yes, highly recommended it. So you go check them out six quid a month, more than get your money's worth? Yes.

But as for me, as I'm sure you're aware, I am Terry Cook. I'm the host and creator and founder of the Instructor Podcast heading towards episode 100, which at the start of the show, you'll know, that's now being recorded live at the Instructor Expo, which will be released, if my maths is correct, on the 9 October. So almost 100 episodes in, as well as that I host, the Instructor Podcast Premium, where for an extra £10 a month, you get a whole heap of content, including the three new shows that I have got on over there, one of which is with San Harper where we are talking about how mindfulness can help ADIs and learners. I have Bob Marton over there where we are looking at how we can become better driving instructors. And they have Robin Bates over there, who is helping us grow our driving school audience. First episodes went up in July and we've got another three coming up in August.

That is on top of all the regular content where I chuck out at least two episodes every month. And we've also got a bonus one coming out, which is the Green Room extra. So, every time we record an episode of the Green Room, we do a little extra bit at the end, which, I don't know what Chris is going to tell me, but he will give me a topic and we have to discuss it and that gets thrown over there as well. There's also some video content going up over there. Some of my guys have asked for video, so that goes up over there as well. And you get some lovely discounts for places like Client Centred Learning, the ADI/PDI, Doctor San Harper’s, Mindfulness and even GoRoadie. So for £10 a month, I think you're more than get your money's worth.

However, if you don't want that extra content and all that kind of stuff, that is fine by me. You are more than welcome to just get the most out of these podcasts. All I ask as a little favour is that you tell people about it and share it, because we want to reach as many people as we can.

But that is me and that is the end of the setting, the table. So let's dive back in to what we were talking about, which was the test focus. So the Are You Ready? campaign, It is literally test focus. The wording of it is test focused. There's no way to get around that. I spoke to Graham O'Brien recently on the podcast and he said, kind of admitted that the wording is test focused. And obviously, and I did like this, he did state, yes, they want to improve the pass rate. They want the pass rate to increase. That is part of it. But you also put quite a compelling argument as to how that would help after you test, speaking about the idea of being the independent drive aspect. So you've got no help at all, which we can't replicate, but we can try. But is this too test focused, Chris? Is it necessary? Should it be out there, or should it all be focused on safe driving for life?

Chris: Does it have to be this test focused? Because I don't think it necessarily does. I get the point of it is focused on the test, but actually, if safe driving for life is still the thing, then at the point at which they are taking the test, they should be ready for the life after the test. So I'm not convinced it's quite so black and white.

I had a fascinating conversation, at the risk of going totally off at a tangent, because I know you love them, had a fascinating conversation with a PDI earlier who had bit of an issue on his first attempt at part three. And my understanding of it, because it was a brief part of a long conversation, was that he'd taken a full license holder. And the criticisms were that they were a full license holder, so they passed the DVSA standard. So they should be treated like a full license holder. Shouldn't have L plates on the car, shouldn't have the need for the help. But actually, if that individual does have that need for the help, if the L plates keep us all a bit safer because they highlight the fact that someone who might do something stupid because of stress, confidence, whatever it might be, inexperienced, whatever it might be, they might have been lucky on the test day, they might not be at that magical standard that we want. They might have scraped it. So, the DVSA approach to that was, you've passed the test, so you've got to be on that side of the fence. We know that's not necessarily true, and we hopefully are all aiming for that extra bit where they do feel confident, where it's not. Now, I'm going to learn to drive, and I know we've all heard that. I had a parent said it today, actually, that well, they all learn to drive after they pass their test, and I really want to scream every time I hear it. So I'm not 100%. On the fact that it is black and white. This is test and therefore safe driving for life is moved to one side.

I do agree from, I would say once because we're not going to dig it up here. The awesome podcast that you did with Graham from the DVSA, I absolutely loved it. But you held them to account in a way that was polite, professional and means you're probably not a driving instructor. He covered on there that the moves towards it being more about real life, the fact that you can get away with things that would have been a stupid fail before never really made sense and therefore meant you were teaching differently to how they were going to be driving. What makes it safe driving for life is where we hold it to whether we aim for the minimum standards or whether we actually say, okay, the skills we're going to teach are going to be realistic, they're going to be useful and we're going to be able to move forward. So, it doesn't sit hugely comfortably with me when it is focused on that because it almost ends up being well after their test. We can't teach them anything, they can't benefit from being with us. And then on the theory test, it's still saying we should still be doing past plus. So where does pass plus then sit?

Terry: One of the things that Bob Morton talks about a lot, if you don't know Bob Morton, go check out his episodes on the other podcasts. He's an amazing chap, very insightful, talks a lot, but very insightful. Hi Bob. But he really drums home the idea of being quiet, of ask a question, shut up. And I used to be quite bad at that. And one of the great things about shutting up is when you ask a question, you get a really good answer and you get to hear all the answer and then you get to go, oh, I'm going to come back to that and that and you get some stuff to pick up. And I just want to come back to what he said about the L plates on the car. And I said just out of curiosity because if that's been raised as a point, was it like sort of normal L plates or was it signage on the car?

Chris: It was L plates on the car. You know this thing, I've never quite understood it. There's always been a bit of a hook if you're doing a part two or something, L plate should be covered up. So, if you are a full license holder, it's a DVSA test, there shouldn't be an L plate. They should be crossed out or covered or removed if you can.

Terry: I just think with that and I'm telling you this, and I'm sure most of public is if you see a learner car that's got signage going all over it. I don't know. It's all over the place. There's just a tiny little white corner, little white square in the corner that doesn't stand out because all you can see is, like, learning a driving school bladdered all over. So even if you cross the L out, you're still not seeing it. So, whether you cover them up or put a red line for us, I've seen some people do it's almost irrelevant. I don't know, that genuinely seems really petty to me.

Chris: It's that thing of what does that L plate mean? It means they're likely to make errors and we should allow for that. Well, we've already said that we make errors. Maybe that's why we're in a good position as driving structures, having L plates on our car all day long. It covers us for that. Yeah. I don't know, it feels wrong.

Terry: You also mentioned about the old ‘you learn to drive when you’ve passed your test.’ If a student says that, then we're having a ten minute chat, and I know that chat is me ranting for ten minutes as well, but often, if anyone says it, my response is always, well, what are you paying me for, then? It seems pointless you paying me if you're going to learn to drive after you've passed your test, and you kind of need to drive to pass your test.

Chris: I tackle that the other way around. I get the diary out and I say, so, once they pass their test, how many lessons would you like to book? And actually, my job then, therefore should begin after the test. And why do they not have because that's what I want. I want them to have lessons afterwards. And I get more and more people that are. Admittedly, I'm without a car now and my life has changed a little bit. But when I was with the car sorry for anyone who's not a regular. And you should be. I hope you are now. I do theory training for 90% at least of my week. But before. When I was out in the car. I was getting more and more people after test. They would book in for lessons. Following. Because I was treating it as the norm. And therefore, they just followed suit. So, it does work.

Terry: Yeah, I would concur I think a lot of this, a lot of public and the stuff we talk about comes out of attitude. People assume they have the right to drive. It's a right, not a privilege. And once they pass the test, they can go and do what they want. I think that you speak to most driving instructors, and most of them, I think, will say the same thing. I was like that until I became an instructor, so we know what it's like. Suddenly. It's not like you've always been perfect and then you become an instructor or whatever.

I think we have to work on that mindset that shift a little bit and I think all we can do is talk about it. And the more we talk about it, the more we will get criticism, we will get people moaning. I go back to Driving Instructor Day and there was a little bit of critisism around that, people saying,  why do you get a day?

We're still going to talk about it because the positive, far outweighs the negative. Sometimes I put these podcasts out. I'll talk about stuff and you'll get people complaining about it. But generally positive out whether the negative and the more you put stuff out. The more people see it. It will have an impact even if it takes long term.

But bringing it back to what we're talking about, the ready to Pass campaign and being test focused, I think there's no way around that. If you put that in front of a learner and said, what's this about? It's about the driving test. That's what it's about. I do think, and I only thought of this today, admittedly, because I did go back to read it, but I think there's almost an easy fix with some of this stuff. Going back to my Five Points, you do not need help or prompts from your driving instructor because they won't be there after the test to prompt you. I think it's quite an easy fix to say you need this for the test, but you also need it for after the test because then you're not only saying that you need to do it to pass, you're also saying you need to do it to drive. And I think that there may be missed a little bit of a trick there and that it would have been quite easy to make it about the driving test, but also show how it affects your driving afterwards. If you can't control your nerves, what are you going to be like when you get to Birmingham City Centre and you've never driven there before and they've closed the road that you need to go on and you wind up in the middle of the city center at 05:00 on a Friday rush hour when it's raining and dark. How are you going to manage that if you can't control your nerves? So, I do think that maybe they missed a little bit of a trick.

Chris: I suppose I hadn't realized how important it was that they've gone with ready to pass rather than ready to take your test. So maybe there is a little bit of a it shows that thought maybe there was a brainstorming session on that important fact that they're trying to reflect that in the title and that is about the passing, not the testing. Yeah, I think that's a really valid point.

Terry: Just on a little personal note, I did do a little, almost a little fist punch, punch the air because I hadn't realized and I don't know, I hadn't realized San Harper was mentioned on the site, specifically about the mindfulness. Yes, they mentioned Salon. I'm always pleased for that. So yeah, if you haven't checked that San Harper, go and check her out for other mindfulness stuff and I trivialize it by calling that. But that's not what the podcast about. The other thing you mentioned there and again, I forgot about this because I only found out today. was the pass rate. They've always been public. I know there's a lag on them. They do obviously have to do it retrospectively, so they've always been public. I genuinely don't know how I feel about them being sent to the students. I think I would be more concerned the other way. So, for example, you get the student that gets the thing saying that has got a 30% pass rate. Yes, it might make the student a little bit more nervous, but hopefully that would also make them up the game a little bit, which is probably the goal. I would be more concerned for their test centres with a high pass rate. It's like 60% of people passing that. She was like, oh yeah, well, everyone passes here then I've got a great chance. So, I don't know how I feel about that one. I'm guessing you're a little bit more on the negative side.

Chris: I don't understand. I think literally that's where I sit at the moment. I don't know why they're telling them what's the point? The pass rate, this is the same as when they ask us, I don't care what my pass rate is. I do the best for every individual that I work with, and that person does as well as they can at that moment in time. Hopefully it's all successful.

The overall rate is the collection of people. So if it's about mindset and attitude, you can do you and you can look after the same as on the road. You've got to do the best in the situation that you're in. I genuinely don't get it. I can't see why that's important unless it's to put people off in some way. Yeah, I'm not sure.

It's like on the Ready to pass site it says if you're not ready, put your test back by a few weeks so that you've got time to brush it up. Has anyone tried putting it back by a few weeks? Unless you're lucky enough to have an instructor, who's got potentially OBS access and his booking tests or a number of pupils that they can juggle around and time to stay on hold to the DVSA to do so, which is a real pain, then a few weeks isn't the decision. It's potentially a couple of months and that's possibly being optimistic. Not quite sure why.

Terry: Again, this is a problem that we don't know why and we're guessing as to why. I'm more come on to the new way that they're talking about stuff now. But I think that's one of the benefits of them doing the podcast and being more open with some of this stuff is that we're actually starting to find out the reasoning now, whether you agree with it or not. I think when you understand someone's reasoning, it's a lot easier to comprehend. But I think my guess there, they're highlighting the problem. That's what they’re trying to do, highlight the fact that the pass rate isn't great and we would like it to be more. But show me an ADI that doesn't want a better pass rate. And I don't mean that it's individual, I mean all of it can't want people to pass.

I say jokingly, but I think there's some honesty in it. But by the time they're ready for their test, my guys are sick of me. They're done, they want rid. I think when they fail, they're more disappointed they've got to stay with me for another 10 hours rather than whatever.

But when I think of the tests, sometimes I think of this ready to pass campaign. I look at some of my tests over the years and this goes back, I think this was 2018 or 2019, and I had two tests in the same week at the same test centre. One of them failed, zero driver faults, one serious fault, she stalled. I can't remember the exact scenario, but it was in the middle of a junction. I think she got in there and then got the set up installed and blocked the junction off and it took her a little while to restart the car and get going again, she had a bit of a panic, that was the fault and it resulted in, obviously a blockage of your traffic. So, the examiner would have been right to fail her there. The same week I had someone pass with five driver faults, all for stalling the car, but hadn't done it in that situation. And it's a bit like most you probably would have done. And I look at that and I think out of those two, I would have put that first one as more ready to pass based on knowing the student and also seeing how they do on a test. And that's not a criticism of the examiners, they can only mark what they've seen.

But I think it does bring into account, as you said, the minimum standards. They've got a criteria you have to check, and if you don't check that, you're not ready to pass. And this is the thing, we know a lot of our guys that go are ready to pass, but that doesn't mean they will. So, I think there's a lot of balancing going on here. I do like it, I know probably being a little bit critical there, but I really like what they put out. I think, yes, there's an opportunity where they could have made it less well, not less about the test, but shown examples of where it will benefit them after the test as well, to show that it's not just about the test, the same emphasis, but surely other benefits. I really do like what they put here.

Chris: I have one other criticism of the website, and this is no disrespect to anybody. I don't know the person in the picture, it might be a genuine picture, but I would love to see the opportunity taken by the DVSA to promote. I had a conversation with I think it was with Jackie Turland, but it was with somebody from the DVSA reasonably high up about trying to encourage more female instructors to come through.

Terry: I'm going to interrupt you there because as soon as you started talking, I scrolled up my iPad and I thought, I wonder what it's talking about? Because I have noticed it and I just want to see if I'm thinking the same thing as you when I think I'm because what you just said. It’s all male examiners. There's no female representation there.

Chris: Yeah. And the one that I think is an instructor in there, let's say he looks like us.

Terry: Idiot, that's what he looks like.

Chris: Yeah. He hasn't got elbow patches, but it's too hot for them at the moment. It's not important to the message. I just think maybe if we're trying to put a good light, maybe it's misrepresentative, I don't know, maybe I'll be in trouble. But I just think there was an opportunity there to at least throw in one of the awesome female instructors that we've got, possibly one of the young instructors that we've got coming through, where people are doing it as a career choice rather than a retirement choice, which historically it was, and that's changing. I feel like I'm nearer to the other end than the younger end nowadays, but I'm definitely feeling it.

But bring in someone like that and possibly even look at if they're looking to engage with the media channels that we've got in the industry more, bring in, maybe we can get some faces that people recognize a bit more and bring in some of the guys off of YouTube. I would say yourself, but being that people listen to you rather than watch you, I'm amazed anyone asks for video content, but it's fine, so I have to look at the lovely face in front of me. They're asking for it by choice. I just think maybe we could represent slightly more diversity. Let's bring it in. But you and I both know that sometimes it's hard.

Terry: I mean, putting me out there wouldn't be very diverse. I will say that. But, yeah, on this picture, it's four white dudes that who’s on it. Yes, that is the appearance, and I don't want to go down the hole. You shouldn't necessarily judge side of it, but it's four white dudes. There is a picture of what appears to be a female examiner where it says ‘Tips from driving examiners talking can help on your test’, and then with a picture of what appears to be a female there, and it appears to be four white dudes throughout the rest of the thing. But yes, I would agree. Find a thought of a driving instructor. If you were to draw a driving instructor, you would draw me, or you, essentially. That's what you're drawing and that's what's on there. And I haven't even thought of that. But as soon as you started talking, I looked like, yeah, that's actually quite telling.

Chris: All of the pupils seem to be the female in there as well. So, I just feel it just a bit of diversity on the page. Not necessarily going for diversity specifically for that reason, but just inside of it. If they want people to connect, it's making it more like them, possibly.

Terry: I don't want to go down this road too much, but some of them I don't think about because I'm the straight white dude, I'm represented everywhere, but I'm seeing a lot more of I know you're not a football fan, but with the lionesses with them, they're in the final. And I don't watch a lot of football, I've not watched a lot of this, but it's like I'm seeing girls talking about I'm seeing who I want to be, I'm seeing these role models, these icons, and people aren't seeing that. And I think that's what they need to see. If you were to look at this page, you're probably thinking, there’s no female examiners. Is there any point me going for it if they don't take on female examiners? And I don't want to say I don't want to get too much into this, but it's a valid point, I think. A valid point.

 Anything else on the Ready to Pass campaign? Sorry, I did want to mention, because you mentioned it previously, about the fact that we get asking Adi's do it, and I've seen some criticism of Asking Adi's promote. And I think the thing there is you don't have to. If you choose not to, that's fine, but just because you don't want to do something doesn't mean it's a horrendous idea. I think that if you completely disagreed with the Ready to Pass campaign and therefore didn't want to promote, there was no problem in criticizing the Ready to Pass campaign. That's a different scenario. But if you're just complaining that the DVSA wants you to promote it, I think that's wrong, because how else are they going to promote it? They've got 40,000 ADIs, of which I'm ranked 26,437. You need to watch a video to get that joke, there's 40,000 ADI’s, give or take. Well, imagine if 40,000 ADI’s all started promoting it. I genuinely think that would affect the test rate. And I don't mean all of a sudden, it'll go from whatever it is, 45% to 75%, but I'd like to think there'd be a few people that started seeing and thinking, you know what? Maybe we're going to pay a bit more attention to my theory. Maybe I am going to listen to my instructor. Because it's not just the instructor. This is the other thing, and I've been complaining about this for ages. I want some support from the DVSA. I want some backup. Well, they've given us a bit of backup by giving us these resources are not tests. Whether you use them or not, it's up to you. But they've given us resources. They're giving us some backup with this Ready to Pass campaign again, I know I was kind of picking fault wih them before – I’m desperately trying to scroll back up, trying to find them!

Here’ we are are… ‘But your driving instructor says you are ready’ we can't get more back up than that. It literally says on there and on the emails that they send out that your driving instructor needs to say you’re ready. So, if your driving instructor says you're not ready, you shouldn't be going for your test. That's backup, that's support. It may not be all the support we want, it may not meet our exact criteria, and I'm pretty sure there's 40,000 different sets of criteria available that we want. But that's why I like it.

Is it everything I want? No. Could it be better? In my opinion, yes. But it's backup and support, and I think, why not promote you? Why not share it on social media? Why not send it to your students individually and say, we've got your test coming up in four months. Have a flick through this, and that kind of stuff. Use it to your advantage. And if you don't want to use it, it's completely fine. That's not a negative, but it's there if you do, I said I wasn’t going to have a rant and I think I've just had one.

Chris: It's a very valid one. What they're Not Telling you, if you don't share it, then you're more likely to get a standards check.

Terry:. I think following the recent podcast I released with Graham O'Brien, I'm not sure how that affected my chances, but potentially, after this one they’ve increased again, who knows?

Chris: Don't criticize Loveday Rider in front of a room for a driving instructor, because I'm still waiting for the brown envelope to turn up. So, you're fine. You're behind me.

Terry: She keeps turning me down for the show. I would have liked to have her on at the Expo if she was my guess, but not to be. Whatever. Anyway, I've completely lost my trail of thought.

Chris: Yeah.

Terry: Anything else on the Ready to Pass campaign?

Chris: No.

Terry: It does amuse me. I've got on my screen and I keep pointing to it, which you can't see. I keep pointing to it. All right, so we've been going for another hour already. It doesn't feel it. But let's speak a little bit about the way the DVSA promotes. I kind of touched on it then. They're asking us for help and that's what they're doing. They did specifically ask Adi's to share this ready to pass campaign. They're asking us for help. I think that they're trying to bridge that gap a little bit between ADI’s,  PDIs and the DVSA. I don't think the gap is as wide as sorry, I don't think they realize how wide that gap is between ADIs and the DVSA. I still think that's a bridge. It a little bit by asking for help, by providing some of this stuff in the way they have. They didn't have to put on there. You're driving instructor says you're ready. I'll go back to that. But I also think they're doing the rounds on the podcasting.

Now, I'll say this, I kind of got in touch with the department well, I got in touch with Loveday rider asking her to come on the show and she politely declined, but put me in touch with their media department and we've been in back and forth for a while and eventually they put me in touch with Graham O'Brien who came and did the show. Now, Graham also did Dipod, as I mentioned before, so they're actually being really open and we'll kind of maybe get a little bit more specific about the podcast in a second. But I liked how honest and open he was on both shows and I like the fact that they're doing it because they haven't previously, really they'll go out and do the seminars and the shows and yes, I suppose it could be recorded, but it's not for public viewing, almost, if that makes sense.

Chris: Whereas this is I think they have, but they haven't had the channels. I think that's the thing that actually we've evolved further where the community is getting stronger and more connected. I still think we've got a large percentage that are not connected and that's what all of us are working towards. It annoys me from 14 years ago when I was a PDI and I set up the first Facebook group for driving instructors. That's why I started doing it because there's this lack of connectivity. But it used to be that message was at conferences and so that was 200 people maybe. So out of whatever the figures were, somewhere between 35 and 420. It's gone up and down. You're only talking to a very small number. But now they've got channels where actually the responsibility sits with us to listen, because they are able to talk to potentially to everybody, because everybody should listen. And those that are listening, if you've got someone, an instructor that you know, or if you train PDIs, make the previous podcast the DVSA one, the must listen for them because that will show them exactly what it's all about, whether they like it or not. At least they will have learnt from it. I genuinely think it was what it needed to be, and it was a better job than I would have done.

So we need people who will hold the DVSA to account, and I know from having done dealings with them and work with them, that the people from NASP do, I know you've had them on the show, Carly from the DIA, Lynne Barrie, although it's not her now, and Peter Harvey from the MSA. They do hold them to account in the room, they do ask them to answer questions, but then we have to have the give and take bit and it gets watered down and there's all those other factors, but we need people who hold them to account. We need those things there. And again. You did a cracking job. But I think that there's always wanted to be those communications from the people at the top end. The everyday driving instructor. And that's not a criticism. Just as a way of labelling them. Those that don't end up in the position of being able to talk to the people at DVSA head office or whatever it's referred to as they deal with the examiner.

The examiners as are uninformed as we are in a lot of cases, and therefore that communication is weakened because we're not hearing it from the horse's mouth. So, I think, yes, it's awesome. We need to step up and make sure it's listened to. I'm sure you will agree it should be not just yourself, but we should also be sharing Dipod. We should also be sharing Mick Knowles podcast and if we hear something good. Let our colleagues know about it. Whether it be your local association. Which you should find out where they are and go along and say hello. Whether it be in the test centre waiting room because now we're back in. Then we might as well keep warm and chat about something. Or whether it be on your social media in the same way we should be sharing the ready to pass stuff. I think the communication only works when it's two way, so we need to support that communication.

Terry: I think you're 100% right. We may have different opinions on some stuff this episode, which is always good, but I think you're 100% right there. I think you make some valid points because as you were talking, I think well, actually they have made appearances on Dipod previously because obviously Dipod has been going for eleven years. I think when I'm thinking, I'm thinking of more of what's coming. So, for example, they have recently started using their Instagram more and I like what they're putting up there. I do. I think it's simple and effective and yes, a bit test focused, but it's relevant. And I think generally it's pretty good advice.

 And I kind of mentioned some before and whatever, but I like the fact that they've got this ADI and Sam Harper the Mindfulness Guru, if you like, to write blogs, and they're endorsing that and they're embracing that. And I think that there's some other initiatives coming out. Which it seems to me that they're finding a few places and people to latch onto and think, yeah, this is where we can go. I do think you're right, but I think that you're right. But they're now seeing that those panels are there, like you said, and then embraced it and go, yeah, we can do this.

Chris: This is what we can do with San is a really good example that her work is there's evidence behind it. And I think what that inversely highlights is, as driving instructors, there's not much in the way of evidence. And what the DVSA need for change is some facts and figures to work with, because that's the arena that they're in, the political arena that they're in. So are supporting these things, not just the DVSA, but other avenues where people are doing research, where the DIA are involved in Driver 2020 and studying modular learning and different approaches. In that way, we need to support it.

So, we get facts and figures, as I understand it, and heard a number of different reasons for it. It's the evidence that allowed them to then pursue mindfulness and the benefits that it can bring. So, if we could get more of that, we will get more from the DVSA as well. So, it's all about support. And this is, again, when I refer to them in the minimum standards position, I do so in a supportive way. I think there's some very good people at the DVSA. The structure of the plumbing thing frustrates the heck out, but the people there, they are looking, they want to, but we need to give them the evidence to prove that it's worthwhile even coming down to your local association meeting, they have to record how many people turned up. If you only get three, it's much harder to get them the permission to come back. So support your local association, support the podcast so that Terry can go back with thousands of viewing figures and be able to say, this is how many people have engaged. They will then keep doing so because it works. The problem is when we are fragmented. And I went to the Folkston Association yesterday, and I always feel very humbled every time someone wants to come and listen to me wax lyrical. But they were saying how difficult it is to get to fill the seats because although people want to, everyone's busy, all these things are going on. If you don't support your local association and you don't support the things that are important to you or might be in the future when it goes wrong, they won't be there when you need them. So, yeah, I think that's where we need to get on board and we need to shout and we need to offer the appreciation as well, because I get it. We do criticize occasionally. Only occasionally. I got told I never criticized the DVSA the other day.

Terry: Clearly not. I mean, let's go back to list the first half hour, at least. That's all I can say there. It's one of the reasons, actually, why because originally for The Green Room, I used to put the first half out publicly and the second half out for the premium exclusive. And I realized that we always spent the first half hour criticizing on the second half, praising. So, it just felt like we've been negative all the time, which is one of the big reasons why I changed that. But either way, let's just touch on these podcasts.

The reason I'm making a bit of a fuss about these podcasts is because obviously I'm a big podcast fan. So, because I'm a podcast fan, I know it's what's going on. It matters to me. And I think when stuff matters to me, I'm more likely to talk about it. But I also was impressed by the amount of time that Graham was willing to give up. He's recorded two episodes with Dipod, which probably would have resulted in two to 3 hours worth of his time. The episode we put out, we recorded for 90 minutes. I think it went out about 125 minutes, sorry, 1 hour, 25 minutes, not 125 minutes, but we had a much longer chat than I probably spent about two and a half hours talking in total. That's a lot of time for someone to give up. And that's, I think, part of the reason why I was impressed that they are willing to come and give up this time. I mean, you do it for the instructor podcast, you come and join me here once a month at least, where we have this chat, and it's saying we usually record between hour and 90 minutes and then we'll talk for a bit afterwards. And it's like you're giving up your time, but this is your industry. And that's not meant as a criticism. It's still praise, but they don't have to do it.

But yeah, I think I was impressed by that. And I was also impressed with the podcast themselves, not just the responses from Graham, but from the actual interviews and the podcast as a whole. And I'm being very careful not to give myself self praising, which is why I'm stammering a little bit, but I want to touch on those for a minute because there's a lot of information available from those podcasts. Like I said, there'll be another one coming out soon from Dipod, so there's a lot of stuff that we can go and listen to and take information from. So I'll ask you about the Dipod one first, Chris, because I know you were a fan. What did you gain from listening to Dipod?

Chris: It was a very different podcast. It was much more of a conversation in this note. I'm trying to think for people who haven't listened. The guy is on DIPOD and I know them all, I think, was on it three times at one point. I was like, the most visited person, but I don't know if that's been beaten. And they've been going for eleven years, so they've got their style and everything is a bit like Top Gear, that if you don't like that dynamic between the hosts, don't bother watching it because it's not about the cars, it's about the dynamic between the people doing it and it's about that conversation that they're having and that kind of thing. And for me, that's it. With DIAPOD. It was interesting. There was really interesting chat about cardington and how things have worked and kind of the evolution.

It was just, for me personally, a little bit reflective of what's happened in the past and critical of that, rather than critical of what's going on now and bits of information. And it didn't tick my boxes, but I'm sure other people will absolutely love it. I never really liked Top Gear, but I don't like saying it because I occasionally end up in the room with James May. That would be embarrassing, but seeing as it's just you and I here yeah, I think it's one of those things where you've got to enjoy the dynamic of it.

With your one. I enjoyed the dynamic of it far more and it ticked the boxes for me. I think it was an awesome benchmark of an episode or a subject for people to actually look at them and compare and see which one they like. They might like both. And brilliant. You've got lots of gaps between lessons. You can tap into it, you can learn from it. And it was enjoyable. I think Graham is an honest bloke. The first time I met him was when the driving test changes happened. And it was one of my early examples of how when we understand why they've done it, it makes sense. And it was the pulling up on the right and the removal of the turning in the road. And it came to our local association, I think it was, and explained the thought process behind it. And I'd walked in the door going, I'm really frustrated because I don't get why and this doesn't make sense. Pulling up on the right, stupid. It makes no sense. And then he said, Imagine there's a lorry there, and he pulled up behind it. What would you? And I was like, yes, totally. I'd reverse back a bit and then I'd move off. I'd do that. And it made sense. The frustration is always, why don't we get that in the first conversation, not the second one? But yeah, that was my feeling of it. The conversation from him was great and I thought the subject matter was great.

Terry: Do you think that I challenged, maybe challenge the wrong word? I'm going to go with it, did I  challenged Graham enough?

Chris: Yeah, absolutely. I think you spoke from the street, if you like, the frontline of driving instructors. The things that they don't, as we said before, they don't get to say to the people at the top end unless they happen to be at a conference, and they're the one, the one person who gets the question. And it's never answered, it wasn't a conversation. I think you spoke for people and I think you asked the questions and you didn't let it be, you didn't pull your punches, you were very polite about it, but you said, this is why, this is where we think. I feel that I don't agree with you. The industry came away better off because there was an opportunity to challenge it. It was taken in a really positive way, and you gave them kudos when they deserved it, and you said, Actually, I don't agree when they don't. And so, for me, that was what was important.

Terry: I think the thing we've got there where potentially for the DITC and the associations is they've got a resource. Instructors come to you, why this? Why this, why this? You can then say, well, here, go check this out, whether it's me, Dipod, whatever, listen to this, you'll find out. And I think that wasn't there before and I think kind of touching on that previously. Like you said, you go to the conferences or whatnot you could then repeat and answer back, but there's no resource for anyone, and I think there's now a resource for people, which is quite cool.

Chris: And instructors need to hear it from the horse's mouth. Sometimes it doesn't matter that I say it. Well, I've had this conversation, I think this they want to hear it direct, and that opportunity is there. Yeah, but I also don't want to sit around blow smoke up your backside because people will think you're paying me.

Terry: No payment going on.

Chris: No, I don't even like him. That's the problem. That's why it's sticking in my throat.

Terry: I think the thing there is there's two different podcasts and as you said, people will have preferences and that’s fine.

 I appreciate that I'm the only podcast that does it, but that's why I promote the DID podcast and Dipod because I don't want someone to listen to this podcast and go, well, he's a bit of a knob, it’s a no for me. I want them to listen to this podcast and hopefully most people don't think I'm a knob, but the people that do, I want them to go, but it did say about Dipod, I'm going to go check that one out and then they go listen to Dipod and go, oh, actually, yeah, this is good because I'm not going to everyone's cup of tea. And I think that it's great that they've done both and I think that was one of the things I've touched on before because it would have been really easy to go, well, now we've done Dipod now and we've recorded for 2 hours with them, so we don't need to do anything else.

But as it happens, I've got some great feedback and I'm just going to take a second actually, because I've been quite, what's the word? Humbled, almost, with some of the feedback I've got from this episode and from myself, Chris, and from a few other people that have taken time to message me. Scott Cooper, whose post I  stole for the purpose of the podcast, sent me a running commentary while he was listening to the episode, which was brilliant. It was like, basically you missed this point, should have done this. But then this was good and it was really cool and the DVSA have shared it and the DVSA don't share much and they've got and shared it and some of the feedback I've got has just been really nice. So, anyone that has taken time to do that, I do appreciate it because it did feel like a bit of a I don't know what the word is, almost a moment and it was quite cool that I got to do it and we're going to do it again in future, which is awesome. And I gave my premium guys the opportunity to suggest questions, ideas and topics and questions that I could bring in and I manage to slip some of that into the conversation as well, which helped me actually, because it means they have to think of as much.

Chris: And I have to say, you brilliantly passed it off as your own.

Terry: I learned from the master there, Chris.

Chris: I don't steal all of my good ideas from you.

Terry: No, some of them are steal from elsewhere.

Chris: That's working as a community and that's what I'm all about.

Terry: Stronger together, I think is what they say. Or anything else you want to touch on for today's episode.

Chris: The only thing that I keep being reminded is and I want instructors to hear it so they realize it's okay. Yes, it is still bloody difficulty out there. Yes, everybody is feeling the same and finding that the unpaid stuff is the difficult bit. Trying to manage tests, trying to juggle lessons, there's always been a pain, but while it's in the unrestricted world, so while it's in a restricted world and we haven't got the flexibility we used to have, it's even more difficult. If you are finding that difficult, please talk to someone, because I have had an increase of instructors doing so. I've also had an increase of instructors looking for ways they can improve and be better, which I wasn't getting since Lockdown particularly, which is great because that means people are feeling either they need it or they've got scope for it. So again, reach out and talk to somebody. Always happy to take your calls and try and point you in a direction because that's what we do. And you found one of the really good places because there's an awesome back catalogue of podcast to do. So just to take a moment to acknowledge that life's not easy at the minute, things are getting bloody expensive and yes, we need to respond to that, but we need to look after each other and ourselves at the same time. So apart from that, I think everything is put to bed and we can enter into the rest of August with a big smile on our faces.

Terry: How much of that was said for my benefit because I feel attacked?

Chris: Not at all, actually, no. I'm thinking about the six unusual or not the usual conversations that I've had this week, but I definitely haven't had for a while before, used to, and then COVID came along and it's been on my radar that there's still some people suffering and after a while it gets lost in the background noise and we need to acknowledge them. And equally, there are people desperate to go out and do more in the way of courses or upskilling or training, which I hope is for positive reasons. Not that they're feeling inferior for some reason, they just want to do better.

Terry: Well, when we come to the end of the year and we do our last green room, which will do a cycling review of the year and just ignore in the first seven months of this year, that didn't happen, they didn't exist, nothing occurred. We'll be reviewing at the last five months of the year, hopefully, and they'll all be good.

But yes, no valid point, I second and endorse all of that. So, yeah, come to the end of today's show. As always, more than one so far, but we are going to be recording a green room extra where Chris throws me a topic that I do not know what it is and we have to discuss it. The last one provide a very unexpected, I think, response from me. But, yeah, this is exclusive to my premium members, so you will get that. If you do want to get that on all the content, you can go straight to the patreon account, However, I'm going to leave you with one tip. Do not sign up today. Today is the end of the month. You'll be charged today and then again tomorrow. Sign up in August. That way you're not charged immediately twice. I mean, you're welcome to pay me twice, I'm not going to refuse that. But yes, tip for you. Sign up in August. Because also my goal for this year, I set some goals around numbers, and one of which was to have someone sign up every month. And so far I've had that every month. This year, someone has signed up to the premium. On some months, I've had more than one, substantially more than one, which is awesome, by the way. I want someone to sign up, so I need someone to sign up in August, so why not make that you go and make my day, complete my goals, but really appreciate all listening, really appreciate you joining me, Chris, tell people where they can find you.

Chris: It's been my pleasure. And you can find me the best places, always at www.theditc.co.uk or hit me up on Facebook in various different places on there, so you can find me fairly easy that way.

Terry: Cool. And thanks for your time. So, as always, it's been largely a pleasure.

Chris: Thank you.